During this interview and Mark Malatesta review, author Kathy Finley talks about her memoir, her best tips for writers, and her experience working with former literary agent Mark Malatesta, who helped Kathy get literary agents and publishers interested in her book. Kathy is the author of My One-Eyed, Three-Legged Therapist: How My Cat Clio Saved Me, published by Purdue University Press.
Mark Malatesta Review by Kathy Finley
“Three publishers were interested in my book, and I signed with Purdue University Press. They loved my book and gave it rave reviews. I’m ecstatic! Since you’ve been a literary agent and worked for a publisher, you know how they operate. Not everyone in the publishing industry cares about authors. You’re genuine and tell it like it is, but you’re also kind and encouraging. Thank you so much for all you’ve done for me.”
Kathy Finley
My One-Eyed, Three-Legged Therapist:
How My Cat Clio Saved Me
(Purdue University Press)
The Mark Malatesta review above is an edited excerpt. Click here to see the complete Mark Malatesta review, and click here to see more Mark Malatesta reviews.
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Kathy Finley Interview
During this 72-minute interview with Mark Malatesta, author Kathy Finley talks about her memoir, My One-Eyed, Three-Legged Therapist, published by Purdue University Press. During this interview, Kathy also shares her advice for other authors, and she talks about her time working with former literary agent Mark Malatesta, who helped Kathy get literary agents and publishers interested in her book.
Part 1 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Mark Malatesta: Kathy Finley is the author of My One-Eyed, Three-Legged Therapist: How My Cat Clio Saved Me, published by Purdue University Press. It’s about how an adorable, spunky, gray-and-white kitten helped Kathy regain the courage to face life’s challenges, and realize none of us are truly alone. Born into poverty, losing her dad at age seven, and targeted by bullies, Kathy turned to pets for unconditional love and acceptance. A difficult childhood led to an abusive marriage, but things changed on Kathy’s 40th birthday, when staff at the organization where she worked gave her a cat named Clio.
A special needs cat, the runt of the litter, and a two-time cancer survivor, Clio had an incredible will to live, full-tilt. The intrepid feline knew no fear, and displayed unlimited self-confidence. She overcame not one but two disabilities. Watching Clio thrive despite what life threw at her helped Kathy put her life in perspective, accept the past, embrace the present, and look to the future. Kathy is a lifelong animal lover and donor to many pet charities and animal welfare organizations. She’s worked for and run nonprofit organizations, and she’s certified in fundraising and association management. Kathy holds a PhD in organizational development, a master’s degree in history and museum studies, and an MBA with a major in marketing.
Throughout her career, Kathy has edited and written newsletters and magazines. She was recently honored with the Muse Medallion Award–and a Certificate of Excellence Award–from the Cat Writers’ Association for her article about the feline-human bond. Kathy has also written for “Lola the Rescued Cat blog,” as well as other cat and animal blogs. Kathy and her husband live in Indianapolis, where they are owned by three cats. To learn more about Kathy, visit kathyfinley.com. So welcome, Kathy!
Kathy Finley: Thank you, glad to be here.
Mark Malatesta: Oh good! And I’m a cat lover, to let everybody know. I’m sure they know, anyone in my network, I put pictures of our little ragdolls in my newsletter sometimes. So, alright, I’m really excited to get into this. I know I already introduced the book briefly, but will you please take a little bit of time, a few minutes, to tell everybody more about it since I know a lot of people listening will want to get a copy…whether they’re animal lovers, whether they’re writing memoir, whether they know somebody who might benefit from the book. Just tell everyone a little bit more about it.
Kathy Finley: Well, the book is technically a memoir, but in reality, it’s the story of how animals, particularly cats, helped me overcome life’s many challenges. I think it’s a testament to the strength of the human-animal bond. But more importantly, instead of a story about me, I think it’s a story about Clio. Clio, as you mentioned, came to me after an abusive marriage and a very acrimonious divorce. She saved herself as you noted too. She faced two bouts with cancer which left her with one eye and three legs and so she had many challenges and disabilities. But as I watched her, I was able to overcome the challenges that life threw at me. And her self-esteem, unlike mine at that point, and self-confidence, were absolutely off the charts.I think that too helped me rebuild my self-esteem and give me the confidence that I needed to face life’s challenges.
So, the book is really a testament of how pets, whether it’s cats or dogs, what they have to teach us. I hope the book will not only be an inspiration to people who are faced with life challenges, but I hope it will inspire people to adopt pets and to allow those pets to teach us things and learn from them and watch their resilience and their self-esteem, their self-confidence so we can actually become better people. And I think it’s, even if you aren’t a cat person or a dog person, I think the book has a lot to offer on how we can overcome all of life’s challenges. But sometimes we need help from our four-legged friends instead of our two-legged friends, or, three-legged friends.
Mark Malatesta: There we go, sometimes they’re three-legged friends.
Kathy Finley: Right.
Part 2 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Mark Malatesta: I absolutely love that! I don’t know if you did this on purpose or if it was just an accident, but you snuck in a great, a rule of writing a great memoir. You didn’t say it directly, but you said the book is really not about me. It’s about these other things and these themes and these things that can help the reader. I don’t know if you were conscious of that when you said it, but I mean that’s what makes a memoir really good. It’s not just the oh I’m so interesting and my story is so interesting, and everybody should just read it because it’s so interesting.
Kathy Finley: Like you said, I snuck it in. I really don’t want it to be just about me.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: I want it to be an inspiration to other people and I really felt it was about the bond we developed because I’m…I don’t want to say I’m a nobody, but I don’t think people are saying well who is she and (laughing) and why do I want to read about her? I want to make it…this could be about you.
Mark Malatesta: Exactly, yes. There’s a misconception…I don’t know how many memoir authors I’ve worked with now that have gotten traditional publishers that aren’t famous or celebrities. They might be very competent and sometimes somewhat literary writers. But you don’t need that either. You just need a story well told with relatable themes that is entertaining and/or edifying and that’s it. Not to minimize that, that’s a lot.
Kathy Finley: Right.
Mark Malatesta: You don’t need this massive following or all the other things. Right?
Kathy Finley: Right.
Mark Malatesta: That’s empowering. Alright, so let’s get into reliving the day, or however this unfolded. I don’t remember exactly so you’ll refresh my memory and everybody else will hear this for the first time. But please relive for a moment the day that you got the news and how that unfolded. If it was over the course of a phone call or a day or weeks where you suddenly knew okay, this is real. I have a legitimate, well-respected publisher. How did that happen, how did that feel? What have you done to celebrate since, if anything? Some people don’t, some people go all out. But relive that a bit and then we’ll go back in time and talk about how you got there later in the call, but before that we’ll do the advice for writers that you have.
Kathy Finley: Well, I started out, I contacted agents. I actually had one agent who was very interested but wanted to wait eight, nine months to come back to me. It sounded interesting, but I’m truly an impatient person as I’ll describe later. I’m more comfortable and was used to working more with independent publishers in my work life. We didn’t have the literary agents. And I decided to pursue the path of looking at independent publishers, and got a list of independent publishers. I went through that to see who might be interested.
I saw one of them was Purdue University Press which has a veterinary school and that’s where Clio’s veterinarian went to school, since I’m in Indiana. I thought I don’t know, and I looked up their website and sure enough they had this human-animal bond series. I thought well, it’s not an academic book but I sent it in, and I think it was like the next day or the day after I get this call and I’m like, well I better answer that. It looked like it was from within the area, the area code where I have friends and whatever.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Part 3 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Kathy Finley: In the end I picked up the call and it was the head of Purdue University Press saying we got all your material. We are so interested in this book. We’ve never seen a marketing plan like this. We showed it to the staff, and we read it right away. We loved it. We are an academic press, so it’s got to go through several more review processes, but are you interested in keeping this process going, and do you want us to go the next step? And then at the next step we would offer you a contract.
I was so excited, I couldn’t believe it, because this was probably one of my long shots that I took. I had to control myself and not act too excited or start screaming and yelling… (laughing) with the phone in my hand. And of course, my cat jumped on my lap at that point and started meowing, which made the whole thing even more real that I was a cat person.
I asked him what the next steps were, and he told me we’re going to pursue this. I had to go through two more review processes. And I had to send them a list of people who wrote about cats, were known in the field, and they would pick a couple to review it and it would be a blind, blind review. So, I said fine. I was trying to get all that material together, but I remember running in to tell my husband. He was in the den doing something and I was so excited. I thought, well, don’t get too excited because you know, maybe, we’ve gone down this path before…
Mark Malatesta: Right. We’re not there yet.
Kathy Finley: We’re not there yet. But goes, “Purdue University Press?” And I was like, “Yes!” That was fantastic. It wasn’t too long after that…they take a little longer at an academic press. They got back to me and said the blind reviewers loved it, which made me feel off the charts. They actually sent me the reviews. Not who it was, I found out later, but basically the reviews were really good. And then they said, “Well, there’s one more process, we have an editorial board. (laughing)
Mark Malatesta: Oh no, right.
Kathy Finley: And I was like oh no! But I had already signed a contract. Of course, it was all contingent on the final editorial board review. And that went really well. I can imagine the editorial board, a bunch of academics. I was thinking oh dear, they’re going to say, “This is not an academic book. We don’t want to publish this. This is not serious!” But they loved it too. So, it was a win, win and I don’t remember how we actually celebrated. I do know we probably went out to dinner like we usually do, but we also decided I think somewhere along the line that since I finally got a publisher that we could finally maybe take that trip we wanted to Europe, and we did that. I wouldn’t say it was a celebratory trip, but I think it kind of like I’m too busy I’m going to be working on this and we took that trip so, I think I was just…it was a long process, but I think when that call finally came I was ecstatic I guess is the word for it.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: I thought briefly it would be nice to have a commercial publisher because academic publishing is a little bit different. But I felt that really it would give, as a first-time commercial author in the commercial world I guess if that’s the right term for it…that it seemed to me that it was a good start for me. It would give me credibility and it would, when I write the second book or third or whatever, that at least that would be a good start for me in terms of developing a platform, getting known, having credibility in the outside world.
Mark Malatesta: And it also, by the way, if a smaller publisher like that, a very legitimate one, well respected but a small- or medium-size publisher, if you’re a big fish and a lead title for them, that can be better for the author sometimes than if you’re like the tiny fish at the bigger publisher.
Kathy Finley: Yeah, well, I’ll tell you a story. They put out their catalog for the press. They have a catalog for fall and winter. They took the cover of my book, it was on the front cover of their catalog. And I got first billing in the catalog (laughing) for my book. They absolutely loved working on it. They said they work with a lot of academic books, but not all.
Mark Malatesta: This is way more fun.
Part 4 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Kathy Finley: They said this was the most fun book they had, the most fun they had with the cover. You know, I was easy to work with, they loved working on the book. And you’re right, I think in terms of being the big fish in the little sea, it may work out best for me. And they’re easy to work with. I mean, when I call them, I get the person I worked with. And they’re all very dedicated to working with their authors.
Mark Malatesta: Right. That’s a great visualization. That’s why I like starting there. Everybody listening who is an aspiring author, they’re thinking maybe I can have that too. And maybe I don’t need to be famous.
Kathy Finley: Right.
Mark Malatesta: Okay, so now let’s go back in time, start at the beginning of your journey as an author. Everyone is so different, right? But from A to Z, and long before you got the book deal and long before we met…when did you first get the idea that you might be a writer or book author?
Kathy Finley: think I have been, well, I don’t know I think I always wanted to be a book author, or a writer. But you mentioned this in the introduction, we didn’t have a lot of money when I was a kid. And when my dad died my mom said, “You’re going to college. Of course, I was like seven and I was like, ‘What’s college?'” (laughing) But okay.
Mark Malatesta: (laughing) She told you that when you were seven?
Kathy Finley: Yes, and she said, “You know, you’re not going to be poor like this. You’re going to have some skills.” So I didn’t really have the opportunity to say, “Well I’m going to be a writer and you know I may have to wait for a few years to get some money. Can you fund me while I’m (laughing) out there looking for money?” So I had to do something. I’ve always felt I wanted to do something I liked, but I needed to get a job and have a steady income from the get-go when I graduated from school. In terms of being a writer, I’ve always been a storyteller. I’ve always had a wild imagination. When I was in grade school and high school and junior high, I would always write stories and share them with friends. I never thought of publishing them.
I don’t know why, but I guess I didn’t know who to publish them with or what to do. When I got into my career, writing was an important part of that career. I remember the first actual publication of mine that I saw in print. It was something about quilts. And I worked for an outdoor museum and there was a village in the 1830s or a re-creation of a village in the 1830s and I wrote the introduction to that. I wrote something for another journal that was put out for, or by, a museum association and it was about the importance of research in museums. That was so cool seeing my name in print.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Part 5 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Kathy Finley: I was hired as a researcher because my major was in history. My first assignment at the place I worked was to do background research and provide a training guide on medicine, so they could use it in the doctor’s office. That manual turned out to be about two hundred pages, but in the process I would frequent the Indiana Historical Society Library, and they were always asking me what I was doing. Then they said, “Why don’t you start submitting to the publications? I did, and they were published there.
Long story short, at the end of four years they created a job for me. (laughing) Medical Historian, Head of a Medical History Museum, and then I was in charge of writing a newsletter and books published by them. Then I went on into association management and part of my job was writing newsletters, letters to members, annual reports. Writing was always a part of it and the Indiana Historical Society has a publishing arm. Then I started getting active in the association management community, both on the state level and the national level and started writing articles for them and the last two I wrote were on ethics. One article has been reprinted six times.
Then I published a chapter in their textbook on association management. So, everything I did before was technical and there was always that urge for me to have a book and do something more creative than just a book on something technical and for my work. I would write down ideas. Some of them I wouldn’t, I never got started on them. I just put the ideas down and put them away and got too busy with work. But I always wanted to write that book that was for more of a general audience than for a technical audience.
Mark Malatesta: It’s crazy all those things you wrote from those first articles or descriptions of things you were talking about, and then the next thing you were researching. Those are wildly different things. Were you kind of winging it in that there weren’t really things for you to model? Like you had to make it up as you went, right?
Kathy Finley: I guess. I’m, well, I mean I would study whatever I was in like when I was at the Historical Society, and I was in medical history, I just immersed myself in that field. Read everything I could.
Mark Malatesta: And the newsletter? When you were doing the newsletter were there old newsletters to look at?
Kathy Finley: Right.
Mark Malatesta: Or you went and researched other newsletters?
Kathy Finley: Oh no, I started the newsletter.
Mark Malatesta: That’s what I’m saying.
Kathy Finley: Yes, I started a staff newsletter at this think tank that I went to on philanthropy, and they were very serious. I started taking some liberties with the staff newsletter. Like making up funny things just for the heck of it.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Part 6 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Kathy Finley: I mean, they knew what was made up. They would come to my office and say “Hey, when’s the next newsletter coming out?” (laughing) So I had some creativity there. I started the program at the Indiana Historical Society on Medical History. When I went to other associations, they did have some of their publications but I refined them. Some of them didn’t have any reports. So, I guess you’re right, I created them from the ground up, but I’d always have to immerse myself in different fields so I went you know from. I went from medical history to philanthropy and understanding the study of philanthropy, which is fundraising, but philanthropy is also volunteering and stuff like that.
Then I tried to understand the association management community. There is an association for everything. So, I ran one that was related to the roller-skating industry. I immersed myself in that and wrote articles on that. We had to do legislative lobbying, and [work in] other industries. So I immersed myself in how you do lobbying, and government, and there was an investment real estate business I was in. I was glad to immerse myself in that too. As a history major, you’re used to research and researching different eras of time and different things and using documents and observing a lot of material. I think that helped in my career professionally.
Mark Malatesta: And it’s going to make the book richer. It depends on the topic, but some research is usually going to make it richer. It’s great you had the discipline, writing all those other things. It’s totally different than writing a memoir but you developed the ability to write clearly, and you got things out there so you could get feedback on it. By the time you got to the memoir it was going to be easier. Even though totally different form as a storyteller, but you had the discipline and clarity before you started.
Kathy Finley: Right. And in terms of a storyteller, I also wrote grant proposals as part of my job. I forgot about that writing.
Mark Malatesta: Uh-huh.
Kathy Finley: Often the best ones include stories, or you’re trying to make a case for the cause, you have to include stories. But I agree, some part of me said you know when I wrote for work and stuff like that I kind of destroyed some of the creativity, although the ideas were there.
Mark Malatesta: Right, right.
Kathy Finley: But I think on the other hand, writing is writing, and I think it’s important you write, period.
Mark Malatesta: Yep, yep. I will say I mean there are a good number of authors including memoir authors that have literally never written anything, and the first thing. I mean, not absolutely nothing. Everybody writes something as they’re growing up and going through school. But no articles, no other books, none of that stuff you did. And they just sit down to do the memoir and they make it. But yes, definitely, the more you have leading up to it, it’s going to be easier.
Kathy Finley: Yes. Well, I think it gets you the taste for when your name is out there and it’s something that’s been reviewed or whether it’s an article on the profession and they put it in their journal or their magazine. It’s kind of like, wow, somebody outside me or where I work was interested in this and so it’s nice seeing your name in print.
Part 7 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Mark Malatesta: Now how’d you get the idea for the book because obviously it didn’t happen until you had Clio. But was it one of those things where like some authors like you’re having epiphanies with Clio and the self-reflection and you just started journaling and it morphed into a book, or was it different?
Kathy Finley: Well, when I lost Clio, and I don’t want to make the spoiler alert, but that’s, she’s no longer with us. But she would be, she would be pretty old if she was. She would be the world record if she was still around. When I lost her, I was distraught because she was such a fighter. I mean she fought twice against cancer and won. She overcame her disabilities, she still had attitude and self-esteem.
She was really a unique cat, and I’m an animal lover. I’ve had cats before so it was just like she was so different that I just was sitting there overcome by grief, from losing her. I wanted to remember her in my mind, and I think it kind of started like you said, journaling. I had taken lots of pictures of her and I was thinking, maybe I’ll put a big scrapbook together and put little stories in between just for me.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: I decided I was going to start writing things down before I forget about her. I started diligently every night writing something, writing more and writing more. And as I was writing, I wasn’t really planning on writing a book, like I said. I was thinking more scrapbook or just for me. Put it aside so it’s there if I want to go back and remember her. It was really cathartic. Instead of the tears I started smiling again because I was thinking about her and what she did. And then I started realizing well there were other animals in my life that did things for me, not as much as her. I realized, my gosh, think of all she’s done for me and think of the person I am now versus what I was before and that’s what.
I mean, like I said, I was in an abusive marriage I was getting out of. I was in an acrimonious divorce. I had no self-esteem. I was kind of back where I started when I was bullied in high school, and I just felt awful. And after her you know, I met someone else, I remarried, we were happy, he loved Clio. I was like, look how far I’ve come and I was thinking how could this help someone else? I mean I would always think of my little self back there in school being bullied. And could this help kids who are bullied? Could this help someone who is facing a health challenge? Could this help somebody who is disabled? Could this help somebody who is going through a divorce.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: And all those things started coming to me and then I realized that would be a great story of triumph over tragedy, and an inspiration to people. So, I thought, yep, there’s a story here, there’s a book here. I think this is important. (laughing) I started looking at it in a little bit different way.
Mark Malatesta: I’m going to circle back to that thing that we mentioned earlier. That it’s about how might this kind of benefit someone else, right? At the very least entertain other people, but if it can help people on a deeper level then it’s even better. It would have to be even more entertaining if it was just entertainment.
Kathy Finley: Hopefully it’s entertaining too.
Mark Malatesta: Absolutely.
Part 8 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Kathy Finley: It’s got some humor in it too. I just I felt that whatever it could do to help others. I really wasn’t intending to, like you mentioned, do the memoir thing. I wasn’t like, oh, I have such an important life…I think I need to tell the world about it. It really wasn’t about me; it was about her.
Mark Malatesta: It’s almost like part of you wishes you could call it a biography of Clio and you’re just a player, rather than calling it a memoir, right?
Kathy Finley: Right, right. (laughing)
Mark Malatesta: (laughing) But they put that darn memoir label on it.
Kathy Finley: Yeah, well I didn’t really, I mean it’s, I think I say it’s technically a memoir at the beginning. But at the end of it, I mean I don’t put that in the title, and I refused to have memoir in the title.
Mark Malatesta: Yep.
Kathy Finley: So, anyway.
Mark Malatesta: Alright, now let’s talk a little bit about your author education in the sense of what did you do formally or informally to study writing and become a better writer other than writing and getting your stuff published: courses, books on craft, workshops, editors, critique groups, like absolutely anything that helped you kind of become a better writer.
Kathy Finley: Right, well, like I said, I don’t have formal training in writing. I don’t have the MFA or a degree in English. I majored in history. I think if that’s not going to be your first choice and you’re still going to college basically entering into something that is going to write require writing. So your degree involves writing more than just say mathematics or computer science or whatever else where you don’t really do a lot of writing. I of course bought books on writing, some of them good, some of them bad.
I have in the past gone to a few seminars. When I was working in association management, at one point there I was like, you know it would be nice writing children’s books and so I went to a couple of things on writing children’s books. I never did write them. (laughing) I got ideas, but I never did write them. Then the importance of networking and going to writers’ conferences because whether you’re in a career working it’s not what you know, or how good you’re at it. It’s really the networking and meeting other writers, literary agents and all that.
So, I was looking into that and guess what happened? Covid (laughing) hit, and the pandemic and I couldn’t really go to anything in person. I did go and find the cat writers association, which was specific to the kind of the book I was writing. They had an online conference, and I actually did meet a number of people through that. The second year, I served on their virtual conference committee and got to know a lot of people networking.
I would say try to keep writing, you know what I mean? Try to make it, hopefully you can make it and it can be a part of your work. Or you could ask if, if you’ve got another job see if you can’t write things and explore opportunities for writing even if it’s what I call technical or work-related writing and explore what opportunities are out there. Keep up the writing for that, and searching out writers’ conferences. I mean you have to be selective, because you could go broke going to all of them.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: I think finding one specific for your genre, getting out there and getting books. Getting a consultant like you is important. But I do think going to writers’ conferences and just writing no matter what you do. Just keep trying to write and making, you know what I mean, making it a part of the day. A lot of universities have, or not even universities, but there are writing courses out there that you can sign up for as continuing education courses they have at different universities and places. So don’t hesitate to sign up for those.
Part 9 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Mark Malatesta: And that’s the perfect segue for the next question. What is your best tip for authors writing a book? Whether it’s memoir or anything else. You can go anywhere with this. It could be your structure, your planning in writing a book, internally what you should think and not think. Absolutely anything that might help somebody have a better experience or produce a better product.
Kathy Finley: My best advice is, and I should have probably taken it earlier (laughing), if you’ve got a book in you or you have some ideas and you want to write a book, just do it. That’s the Nike slogan. Just do it. When I think back of all the ideas I had, all the cute little stories I wrote. I mean it wasn’t about animals always. You know if you have an idea about a book, start it. I always thought you’ve got to start it, finish it, you know. It’s got to be done in such a length of time. Nah, it doesn’t have to. You may totally change it up and maybe it’s not a good idea. But if you don’t start it, you’ll never get going. And if you don’t write down those ideas…I mean I remember several of them, but I’m thinking I had so many other ideas! Why didn’t I write those down?
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: I’m sorry I don’t remember them anymore so (laughing). So, I would say you don’t have to have the whole book plotted out but, you know, start writing and get into that habit and like I said. Just start doing it. I think if I’d have done it earlier, I might have had ten books in the commercial industry published by now. (laughing) Instead of one later in life.
Mark Malatesta: Yes, and you might want to dust off those children’s book drafts and maybe there’s a Clio children’s book in there.
Kathy Finley: Oh, that’s what I would like to turn this one maybe into.
Mark Malatesta: That would be fun.
Kathy Finley: A couple of Clio books, yes.
Mark Malatesta: Six hundred words or less. That’s all you need for a picture book.
Kathy Finley: Right. I think of all the ideas I have, and about the children’s books and stuff like that. Like I said, writing them down. Another thing, I belong to Toastmasters, and we regularly give speeches, storytelling speeches. Some of those ideas I’m thinking would be great children’s books or part of another book or whatever. So, like I said, write the ideas down. If you get up in the middle…in fact the other night I got up to go to the bathroom and I had this fabulous idea. I was like, eh, I’ll remember it when I get back up. (laughing) Guess what, I don’t remember what the idea was
Mark Malatesta: Yep.
Kathy Finley: Even if it’s three o’clock in the morning, keep a pen and pencil in the bathroom or something, or in the kitchen, everywhere. Just jot it down. The other thing, and this is the one thing you taught me, and I kind of learned earlier, as I was going along in the process, is that you have to build a platform. And you may not start with that book. You know, like I’m going to write this book, I’m going to send it off, it’s going to get published, end of story.
I started out and contacted a lot of people saying, “I’m writing a book, are you interested in an article?” And I got a number of articles on this one site, Lola Rescue, and another cat site. I would write blogs about either Clio or some other cat I had. So, it kind of builds you up as you know, you’re a cat writer. You write about cats. In fact, I won an award for one of them.
Mark Malatesta: Yes, and the Cat Writers Association relationship. You weren’t part of that at all, before you started doing the stuff with me and you reached out, right?
Kathy Finley: Right, no, not at all.
Mark Malatesta: And then you’re serving on their board.
Kathy Finley: Yeah. (laughing)
Part 10 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Mark Malatesta: So, more connections, right?
Kathy Finley: Right, and like I said, that’s how you get things done is the connections and the networking.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: But building the platform, continuously writing ideas and if you got the book idea, start it and start building that platform. I think you know there are other publications besides books and building up to that book can help you and help publishers look at you seriously. I think you have to believe in yourself. You know, I can do this. I really can.
Mark Malatesta: And it depends on the topic, how much platform is needed. I spoke with a man quite a while back writing a nonfiction book about how to reverse aging. I was like, well if that’s your book, or how to create world peace, cure cancer, or something like that you’ve got to be somebody in that space right? Like for a book about how to reverse aging they’re going to say, “Well, who are you? Are you a leading doctor on that topic or have you been a consultant and you’ve helped like hundreds of people look younger?” With your book it’s less of a thing. I guess it’s a bit of a thing because of the personal development journey. Again, it’s not just entertainment. You’ve got to know your stuff. It always gets back to research.
Kathy Finley: Yeah, or being known a little bit, and known that you’re a competent writer. I think it’s the same thing I learned but didn’t remember when I decided to write this book is when I worked like I said in association management or museums with medical history. What did I do? The first thing I did is immerse myself and write something to become known in that industry or that field. And that’s the same thing. You can’t just walk into a field and say oh I’m going to tell you all about aging, (laughing) and you haven’t published anything. So, I mean you do have to build your platform, build your credibility, build your knowledge, build your respectability or whatever you want to call it and get out there and get known.
Mark Malatesta: Right. When I was a brand new, young literary agent and didn’t know anything, didn’t know anybody, one of the first things I did is follow the same instinct. I though, let me contact writer’s conferences and ask if they would have me as a speaker, and a bunch did. Then let me try to get an article published in a well-known publication. In a writers’ magazine or something because then, guess what, you have that stuff on your new literary agent website. Then authors go, oh, maybe this guy knows a little bit what he’s doing, right? But without that kind of validation, third party stuff, how are people supposed to trust us, right?
Kathy Finley: Right, right.
Mark Malatesta: Now what about traditional publishing verses self-publishing? I don’t think we’ve touched on that yet. I really don’t judge. I just know from my experience most authors are happier and reaching more people if they have a traditional publisher, but talk us through that a bit, your take.
Kathy Finley: Okay, well my little story is that I didn’t k now much about the publishing industry. I wrote a book and then found out about literary agents send it off to about ten agents, fifteen. I got nowhere because I didn’t know what I was doing. I gave up and decided to just going to go with the self-publishing industry. I’d heard from people it has a, stigma may be too harsh of word, but that people don’t look down on you anymore when self-publishing.
Mark Malatesta: That’s changed, right?
Kathy Finley: That’s changed, so I said I’m just going to go with self-publishing. I wish I would have never done that. (laughing) Okay, I think it hindered me in ultimately me getting this book, which I changed, but still it has most of, you know it’s still about Clio and my time with Clio. I think it hindered me in the long run. So, I would say…
Mark Malatesta: With agents in particular, it’s harder to get them on board if they know you already self-published the book.
Kathy Finley: Right.
Part 11 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Mark Malatesta: You can still make it, but it’s harder.
Kathy Finley: It is a lot harder. Not impossible, as you told me, which turned out to be the case, but it is a lot harder because I think a lot of them do have the stigma saying, “Oh, she self-published.” But anyway, I think you should try traditional publishing. That’s either trying to get a literary agent or going with the independent publisher, which cuts out the middleman or the literary agent.
Mark Malatesta: And it’s faster. We’re talking publishers that don’t charge fees. This is not vanity publishing, hybrid publishing, or self-publishing. It’s a legit publisher.
Kathy Finley: I didn’t understand when you get a literary agent they still have to go find a publisher for the book. That’s what a literary agent is doing. Now they obviously have contacts and probably can do it faster than you can do it. But they still, there’s still going to be time involved. So just when you get the literary agent it doesn’t mean that you know it’s going to be published tomorrow. I think there’s a closer relationship, but the literary agent tends to get it out there to bigger name presses, or you can go to the independent publishers. Which, like you say, you’re a big fish in a little sea and that can work. I think it’s what you’re more comfortable with, what your objectives are. I’d like to make some money, but I had a career and I made some money. I’m not looking at this is my life and I need to you know make a million dollars on this book.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: It would be nice and I could get more cats. (laughing) Feed my cats in the style, treat my cats in the style they could easily become accustomed to as they say, and myself. But I think the traditional, I think what most people don’t understand and I being one of most of those people, particularly, is when you go the self-publishing route unless you really are a master at marketing.
Mark Malatesta: And you have a marketing background.
Kathy Finley: And I have a marketing background, but I didn’t really work in marketing. But unless you have that marketing background in publications, you’re really kind of out there on your own. You have to basically, I mean, you’re going to have to have the book. They’re not going to take that book and say, “Hey, you know, I think if you reverse these chapters, it would be a much better book.” Or, “If you add a little bit more here…”
They’re going to publish it the way you present it. And they’re going to put a little ad on their website for your book for a few days. They’ll send out to their network, a notification of the publication of the book, and then basically that’s it. They’re not there to sell books, they’re there to get you to pay them to publish your book.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: Now, with that said, there are some people who have gone that route, they’ve made money, they’ve done a respectable job, but they know a self-publisher is not going to be out there marketing it for them.
Mark Malatesta: A very small number of those self-publishing companies, and you’ll pay for it. One of my clients, a while back, was offered a $58,000 package. Holy cow! Now they’re putting ads in like big places and like they’re doing all this stuff. Like you’re probably going to sell books, and they are picky about who they work with. But it’s still not ideal.
Kathy Finley: And I mean, in self-publishing I never ever recovered the cost of publishing it. I mean the self-publisher I used, they laid it out nice. They didn’t edit it, just, well, I would call it copyediting. For small stuff, no typos type of thing. They did a nice cover, and I was pleased with that. There are some publishers that would do a lousy job even at that.
Mark Malatesta: Right, even [some of] the big ones.
Part 12 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Kathy Finley: Yes, and you have to be very cautious. I think I said there is a way to go with that, but I think you have to be pretty adept at marketing and adept at the publishing industry and be able to do it yourself pretty much.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: But if you’re expecting them to really do a big push with it, that’s not going to happen. You’re going to have to keep on top of them too. To see what they’re doing and stuff like that.
Mark Malatesta: You’ve got to drive the bus.
Kathy Finley: Yes. At least they have networks, and yes, with self-publishing all I’d get would be, “Oh, we’ve got this opportunity for advertising at this author’s fair or whatever. It’s another $350 or another $500, or another thousand dollars.” I was like, okay, that’s fine, but I wish I would have known that and hadn’t done it. Like you said, some people have done it, but I think they’ve been at it a long time and really know what they’re doing, (laughing) and they were in marketing themselves.
Mark Malatesta: Or if you’re 97 or incredibly inpatient or you’ve tried everything else or you’ve exhausted the agents and the independent publishers. There are scenarios and legit reasons. Alright, so perfect segue. You were just talking about marketing. You said think about your platform, work on your platform. You gave some tips on that. Anything else you want to say about marketing that would be helpful, primarily for authors who don’t have their book out there yet? Kind of they’re thinking about it, working toward it. Is there anything else you want to say about that?
Kathy Finley: I can say a few words about marketing, but I have one other thing going back to the self-publishing, and this does have to do with marketing. Very rarely do the self-published books get into the brick-and-mortar stores, the bookstores. Sometimes they do, so I’m not saying all, but usually they look askance at that. And oftentimes like magazines and New York Times, the book reviews. They won’t review them. I remember sending it to several cat magazines and saying, “Why won’t you review this?” Their answer back was they don’t do self-published books. To me, that’s marketing because that’s a good way to market the thing. I would say that in terms of marketing, the marketing really starts before the book is published.
Mark Malatesta: It should, at least.
Kathy Finley: You should develop a list of who you think the influencers are, whether it’s associations, experts in the field of whatever you’re doing, that genre, and tell them you’re publishing a book. Get that list you’re going to market to. For example, I did pets and cats, all these associations and organizations and experts on cat behavior and the human-animal bond. I had a list of about four hundred people, which is actually what impressed Purdue University Press. They’re using that marketing list in addition to theirs to get the word out about the book. Build that platform or that marketing list before the book is published and then you’ll want to have a website. Once your book is published you’ll want to let those people know, or make sure the publisher lets them know, it’s published. Ask if they need any more information.
Say, “I’m available to speak, do you want another article?” That type of thing to keep the marketing going. One simple thing is to put on your signature your email. I have a separate email for my book rather than my normal email. A picture of the book, published by the name of your publisher, and say “Author and Animal Advocate.” Every time it goes out they’re seeing the picture of your book. That’s one cheap thing you can do. And like I said, following up with those influencers afterwards is a really good idea. Another thing I’m doing that kind of goes along that line is think globally, act locally.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Part 13 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Kathy Finley: On Saturday I’m going to be at a holiday author’s fair, ironically down at the Indiana Historical Society where I used to work. With other Indiana authors. They’ll probably have a thousand people come through. I probably won’t sell that many books but at least I’ll be at the author fair. I’m going to go to the local library which holds little author’s fairs. I’m right now in contact and trying to work out something with presenting something, and at a women’s shelter. They actually have a book club. They were talking about either reading that book or me coming down and talking for like a fundraiser at a book signing. And the Humane Society, I’m going to contact them. You obviously want it nationally, but don’t ignore the local either.
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: You never know when somebody locally picks that up in the paper and it gets picked up nationally, so.
Mark Malatesta: And some of those events like the one you’re doing Saturday, you might sell x amount of books, but you never know who’s going to wander by your booth and invite you to write an article for this, or speak at that, or appear on their pet podcast.
Kathy Finley: Exactly, and since you’re local and you know that makes it easier for them to approach you and…to do that and getting out and so. Like I said, don’t ignore the local, don’t focus just on that, but don’t ignore that because that’s certainly part of the market.
Mark Malatesta: And, by the way, that platform building you did, I wasn’t thinking about this earlier, but you were saying, I may be putting words in your mouth, but I think the publisher is basically saying, “We might not have done this, or we wouldn’t have done this if you didn’t have that marketing plan.” And whether they said this directly or not, that’s probably also part of what contributed to your book being their lead title, you having your book cover prominent on their website, you having your book cover as the cover of their book catalog for that season.
Kathy Finley: Oh, I definitely think it did. Definitely. So, yes, there’s a lot of legwork involved and a lot of research. I found it fun because I like research, and that really, really helps build your reputation. Yeah, I don’t think if it were for, if I didn’t have that marketing plan that well developed, I probably wouldn’t have gotten the response I did, quickly.
Mark Malatesta: Right, right.
Kathy Finley: Because they’re an academic press, they’re not totally into the commercial marketing. And you know, they’ve got lots and lots of books so they can’t be experts in every…you know what I mean?
Mark Malatesta: Right.
Kathy Finley: In every area.
Mark Malatesta: And they don’t want to take a loss even in an academic press. If they keep losing money on the books they publish, they’re not going to be there much longer.
Kathy Finley: No, and a lot of those are going under for that reason. Hopefully my book will keep them afloat for a while.
Mark Malatesta: Exactly, they’ll name a library after you.
Kathy Finley: Well, probably not.
Mark Malatesta: Or after Clio.
Kathy Finley: After Clio, let’s name it after Clio. (laughing)
Part 14 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Mark Malatesta: Right. Let’s talk a little bit about our work together. You shared a couple of things along the way, but is there anything else you think could be helpful for people to understand about what it is, how it works? Whether you want to talk about the introductory coaching call we did, if you can remember that. Or if you want to kind of share some of the things you feel were the most valuable to you during the longer-term coaching. Completely open-ended.
Kathy Finley: Well, I reached out to you in frustration, and I did attend one of your free seminars. I was very impressed with the information you gave me. In terms of working with you, I felt like you were an excellent, excellent, and I’m a teacher, I’m not just saying this because we’re on you know…I wouldn’t be talking to you if I didn’t think you did a lot for me. I guess the best I can say it is you built it like building blocks, slowly. We started out slowly. I think the biggest thing from you was you know how to build that platform, how to build that marketing plan.
Mark Malatesta: Mm-hmm.
Kathy Finley: I read things about a marketing plan, and I think originally before I when I gave up on the publishing the book the first time. My marketing plan was like fifteen pages or something. And at the end of the day, I can’t remember much like forty some pages were very detailed. And I had actually contacted people and I had published things…how to build that platform was extremely valuable. You were very honest without being brutal. (both laughing) It was a lot of work but enjoyable because I felt I was learning something, and I felt like I was actually making progress. And then you know helping, you know, to get literary agents and independent publishers that were in that genre was invaluable, and in a logical fashion.
Mark Malatesta: Right. Doing this for twelve years, I’ve learned, for my benefit too, you don’t want to do too many things at once and you figure out there’s a best order to do the steps. That’s why I always start with the manuscript because that’s where almost always the author is the most comfortable. So, you poke around there, help them make that better, maybe work on the introduction for the book, whether the author thinks you need an introduction for the book or not.
That helps anchor what the book is exactly. Who is this for, how is it different from other things? Who are you? Introducing yourself to the reader. Some of those core things you’re going to need for the pitch material also. But when reaching out to the promotional, prospective promotional partners, you need to introduce yourself and your book to them as well. That’s all grounding to me, and then you hit people with the platform. Now that we have some rapport and momentum, let’s do that scary platform stuff.
Kathy Finley: I forgot to mention, yes, you work with the book first. And I think you gave an honest assessment. I think if you didn’t believe in it, you probably would have said no thanks!
Mark Malatesta: Yes, because even the ones you believe in sometimes don’t make it, so you try to work with the ones you believe in.
Kathy Finley: Right, right. But I think, yeah, I remember you too, you made suggestions about the manuscript which you know I think people when you write you’re so close to it…you just don’t see the obvious in front of you. And helping with the pitch. That was wonderful too. Like I said, you build it in steps and started with the manuscript, the platform, and then we got to the pitch and trying to find a literary agent. I hate to say this because I’m an animal person, but it’s like eating an elephant. It was chunks that were manageable and I felt that I was making progress and learning along the way. Not like oh my God, this is too much information all at once and this is impossible.
Mark Malatesta: That’s interesting. I don’t think much about that. It just kind of flows. But hearing you say that, I’m like, oh yes, I’m glad we do it that way. Right? And I know you had a not so favorable experience working with the self-publisher. Was there anything else you did like work with a coach, consultant, editor, website designer? By the way, I’ve told you this a hundred times, your website is one of my favorites. When I’m working with a coaching client and they need to create a website, if they’re writing non-fiction I try to get them to do that, and if they’re struggling, I’m like, go look at this one. It’s fantastic, you know?
Kathy Finley: Right.
Part 15 – Mark Malatesta Interview & Review
Mark Malatesta: Where was I going with that? Oh, I was going to ask you if you had any really bad experience that would make you kind of slow to trust working with someone. Or not really, you’re not that kind of person.
Kathy Finley: I’ve picked the wrong consultants and stuff like that. I was fortunate picking you, and I’m not just saying that. You knew what you were doing and you weren’t trying to just say nice things, get my money and then off you go and have a nice day, leaving me holding the bag of a manuscript that you know, maybe was never worth anything anyway. There are a lot of snakes, I guess, out there that will use people and play on their frustration. I think you just have to be careful. I think a lot of the scams are, I don’t know if scam is the right word, but I started getting tons of emails after self-publishing, saying, “Well your book is getting no traction, it’s priced too high, blah, blah, blah. We can make a difference for you. We can make an audio book for you, we can make a movie for you.”
Mark Malatesta: Just send us a check. Right.
Kathy Finley: Yeah, send us a huge check. So you’ve got to be extremely careful. I’ve used consultants in my work life that were highly recommended. They come back and they really don’t study the industry and don’t do anything for you. You basically get a little bit of a report or something that just has our name, your organization’s name. It’s like a template. We all operate on some type of template, but they just really don’t provide you anything useful.
Mark Malatesta: Got it.
Kathy Finley: You have to check everything out. And, like I said, when you do the self-publishing, there are good self-publishers like you said. You just have to know what to expect and that there are also some that are pretty bad and scams and you have to start checking out reviews and do your research.
Mark Malatesta: Absolutely. Some of it is just incompetence. Some are more competent than others. Even with the independent presses, right? Just because they don’t charge you money doesn’t mean they’re good. There are some of those. That’s why I love yours. It’s a real one, right? Others will take pretty much anybody, like a vanity press, and throw a thousand things up on the Internet because they know a few of them are going to stick. But that’s not what you want. So, if somebody is going to traditional publishers, like the smaller ones, I’d say look at some of their books on Amazon to see how many reviews they have. If it’s two, four, seven reviews, that’s not good. If you look up a company like Skyhorse, for example, another great independent press, they have New York Times bestsellers. They don’t need to have bestsellers, but you want them to have good sellers at least.
Kathy Finley: Exactly.
Mark Malatesta: Alright so, any final thoughts? Ideas? Wisdom for everyone? That’s the ultimate open-ended question.
Kathy Finley: Just believe in yourself. Be willing to accept criticism and suggestions. Recognize if it’s your first book that you may need to engage a consultant. You don’t know everything, (laughing) or a coach. Someone who really knows the industry. Working with a coach and a consultant was a really good investment. I really, really, really wish I would have done that prior to taking the journey on my own, and making all the mistakes and then coming back to you.
Mark Malatesta: Right. But Clio says it’s okay. Life is what life is supposed to be. And that’s okay. Be in the right place at the right time, right?
Kathy Finley: Right, right. (laughing). Like I said, to have the self-esteem and self-confidence that she had, you can do it. I have three legs, that’s okay I can still jump on the counter. (laughing)
Mark Malatesta: (laughing) Oh my goodness.
Part 16 – Mark Malatesta Review & Interview
Kathy Finley: I’ll develop my tail muscles and that will help me navigate. (laughing) I don’t need two eyes, I’ve got one. (laughing) So, read the book and take Clio’s attitude.
Mark Malatesta: Thank you, that’s exactly where I was going. The perfect segue. Thank you again for doing this and not giving up, sticking it out. And thank you for preparing for the interview. I know if people listen and follow your advice, they’re going to be that much closer, and it’s obvious you care. I really appreciate it.
Kathy Finley: Yep.
Mark Malatesta: Okay everyone, this is Mark Malatesta, founder of The Bestselling Author, with Kathy Finley, author of My One-Eyed, Three-Legged Therapist, published by Purdue University Press. You can get a copy everywhere books are sold, and you can learn more about Kathy at kathyfinley.com.
And…
If you’re interested in a private 1-on-1 coaching call with me to talk about the best way to write, publish, or promote your book, visit AuthorConsultation.com.
Lastly, if you’re listening to this interview…or reading the transcript…and you’re not yet a member of my online community, register now at TheBestsellingAuthor.com for instant access to more information, and inspiration, like this to help you become the bestselling author you can be.
Remember…
Getting published isn’t luck, it’s a decision.
See you next time.
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This interview and review of Mark Malatesta were provided by Kathy Finley, author of My One-Eyed, Three-Legged Therapist: How My Cat Clio Saved Me, published by Purdue University Press. Kathy worked with Mark Malatesta, who is now an author coach and consultant, to get a book deal.
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Who Is Mark Malatesta?
Mark Malatesta is a former literary agent, and the creator of the well-known Directory of Literary Agents and this popular How to Get a Literary Agent Guide. He is the host of Ask a Literary Agent, and founder of The Bestselling Author and Literary Agent Undercover. Mark’s articles have appeared in the Writer’s Digest Guide to Literary Agents and the Publishers Weekly Book Publishing Almanac.
Mark has helped hundreds of authors get literary agents, including the Best Literary Agents at the Top Literary Agencies on his List of Literary Agents. Mark’s writers have gotten book deals with traditional publishers such as Harper Collins, Random House, and Thomas Nelson. They’ve been on the New York Times bestseller list; had their books optioned for TV, stage, and feature film; won countless awards; and had their work licensed in more than 40 countries.
Writers of all Book Genres (fiction, nonfiction, and children’s books) have used Mark’s Literary Agent Advice coaching/consulting to get the Best Literary Agents at the Top Literary Agencies on his List of Literary Agents.
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Mark Malatesta Reviews – Former Literary Agent
Here you can see more Mark Malatesta reviews from authors like Kathy Finley who’ve worked with Mark to get literary agents and traditional publishers interested in their books. You can also see reviews of Mark Malatesta from publishing industry professionals. These reviews of former literary agent Mark Malatesta include his time as an author coach and consultant, literary agent, and Marketing & Licensing Manager for the well-known book/gift publisher Blue Mountain Arts.
